What is the Creator Economy and what does it mean for 'traditional' media?
I think it's exciting to see a Goldman Sachs come in and try to size the market because there's no reliable stat focus. We don't even know how many creators there are. Like, we don't know the basics about this industry. Creators are just permeating into every aspect. I mean, even, like, Gavin Newsom is a creator now.
Kaya Yurieff:So everything is creator, so how do you measure that? But I do think people still underestimate the size of these businesses, the influence of these creators.
Brett Dashevsky:I don't think this is a Web three moment. You're seeing a genuine shift within media and the need for creators and meeting audiences where they are.
Edward Qualtrough:That was creator economy experts, Kaya Yurieff from the information and creator economy NYC's Brett Dashevsky. And this is the DPP podcast. Far more than just viral videos and Instagram posts, the creator economy represents a fundamental shift in how media is produced, consumed, and monetized. So at the DPP's Media Supply Festival in New York in June, Mark Harrison spoke with Kaya and Brett to explore how content creators are becoming serious entrepreneurs, transforming traditional media landscapes and building businesses that compete with established industry models. From the challenges of platform algorithms to the potential of AI driven content creation, this conversation offers a fascinating glimpse into the future of digital media.
Edward Qualtrough:What really is the creator economy, and what does it mean for traditional, in inverted commas, media organizations? There has been some minor tidying up of this recording, but otherwise, it is a mostly unfiltered presentation of the creator economy discussion from New York. Enjoy.
Mark Harrison:Thank you both very much for joining us. Kaya, you had an event in LA last week. Brett, you had an event in New York just a couple of weeks ago. So you're fresh from talking about this topic.
Kaya Yurieff:We're always talking.
Mark Harrison:So yeah, just first of all, give these people a sense of who you are. So Kaya, you go first.
Kaya Yurieff:Yes. Thank you so much for having me, Mark. I'm a reporter at the tech outlet, The Information. I joined four years ago to start a newsletter about the business side of the creator economy. It now has more than 100,000 subscribers.
Kaya Yurieff:And I thank you. And I cover, both creators as entrepreneurs, how they build businesses, how they got started, as well as corporate reporting on TikTok, YouTube, Meta, all the big platforms, as well as startups in this space.
Brett Dashevsky:Hi, everyone. My name is Brett Dashevsky. I am the founder of Creator Economy NYC, which is the city's largest creator economy community, bringing together creators, marketers, brands through in real life events, other content and education that's fueling this space. Also the cofounder of a analytics tool called Siftsy, where we capture consumer insights from social media comment sections, providing that much needed insight layer that's been historically missed, now with the latest and greatest in AI. So I am very immersed in this space on both the creator end from content, and then of course to the tools and analytics side, and so I feel a very strong generalist view, which I like both Kai and I possess, which should make for a great conversation.
Brett Dashevsky:So thanks for having us.
Mark Harrison:Yeah. Actually, it's important to note that you're kind of you're here today with kind of two hats on in a sense, aren't you? Both as a supplier hat, but also as somebody who is working with and talking to and is a creator. And I'm very happy to give a plug for the information, by the way, Thank you. Hey, if you don't subscribe to it It's free.
Kaya Yurieff:Not the information, but my newsletter's free.
Mark Harrison:Yeah, already said it's free. The information, subscription cost is very reasonable, and it is a fantastic source of information on lots of different things. But if you do want to educate yourself about the business of the creator economy and what it really is and how it really functions, you'll find that the columns that Kaya and her colleagues write are really terrifically helpful. Okay, so let's get into it. So let's start with a question of definition.
Mark Harrison:It's a ridiculously broad term, the creator economy. It's it's kind of thrown around very loosely. What do you think of when you use that label?
Kaya Yurieff:Yeah, I do think it's become sort of this catchall term. I mean, at a very basic level, I think of it as a relatively new model where people can build an online following and then monetize that. And then you have the whole ecosystem around it. You have the big brands. You have the big tech platforms from YouTube to Meta to TikTok, and then you have startups, you have managers, you have the photo and video editors, so it encapsulates a lot of different jobs and people, but at a very simple level, that's how I like to think
Mark Harrison:So about you do think of it as being a total economy, you don't just think of it as creators, think of it as all the infrastructure And that go around as those things begin to scale, do they still remain the creator economy? How do you separate that from historic media?
Kaya Yurieff:I think it just merges with media and entertainment. Like, I don't think in five years, we're gonna be saying creator economy. I think we're just gonna say entertainment and media. So I think they they merge.
Mark Harrison:That's really that's really interesting.
Brett Dashevsky:Creator economy will just remain the name of my brand, which I'm happy. Name of my newsletter. It's true. There might be some cease and desist going on. I I think, to kinda just, you know, add on there, it is basically individuals who are monetizing content, communities, their expertise through online mediums, I think is the best way to put it.
Brett Dashevsky:And it certainly is a an economy. It's an ecosystem. You have the platforms that are obviously fueling that this can happen. Right? I mean, with the advent of TikTok and short form video, it really lowered the barrier to content creation, and also opened up, like, a new swath of, of job opportunity.
Brett Dashevsky:Right? It's the modern career, that many people aspire to achieve. Yeah. So
Kaya Yurieff:There's people now who design thumbnails for YouTube channels. That is their job. So this has gotten so niche, and I think AI will even further lower those barriers.
Brett Dashevsky:100%. So there's there's, you know, new jobs that are being picked up. I mean, you ask kids nowadays what do they want to become. They say an influencer or a YouTuber, for better or for worse. Not astronaut.
Brett Dashevsky:Not an astronaut anymore. But that's that's certainly what we're seeing and how I would best describe it, and it ultimately is kind of converging with media. I mean, I think it's a subset of media. You think of the media industry creators are underneath it and are the hot, buzzy thing, but also where the attention is going, because people trust people over institutions, and that's why, you know, you're seeing YouTube does so well, because it's not you're watching a YouTube video, you're watching x person's video. And so, as opposed to, like, CNN's programming, it's, no, it's it's Mark Pyler's programming, or Brett Dashevsky's YouTube, which I think is a really strong distinction.
Mark Harrison:Yeah. Though, of course, actually, that is continuing what's always been true about television, isn't it? Personality led, in a way we shouldn't be surprised that we're finding that in this form as well. When you think of the creators themselves and we're going to start to talk soon about the different areas of creation But broadly, do they think of themselves as a community? Do they think of themselves as a homogeneous group?
Mark Harrison:I'm a creator. Is that the case, or actually, do they think of themselves in subsets?
Brett Dashevsky:I think that creators do think of themselves in whole, because no matter what area of creating you're in, it's no different than being a founder. You go through similar struggles. Right. There's a similar process and steps you need to take to get to where you are. There's a similar path to monetization.
Brett Dashevsky:But there are subsets of creators. I mean, YouTubers would think of themselves as a whole subset and ecosystem in and of itself, and then there's also knowledge creators, right? So folks that maybe are talking about how to, you know, scale your your meta marketing, or or, you know, how to manage personal finances, finances, or or me talking about growing as a creator. So there are those those subsets, for sure, but I do think, all in all, creators do see themselves as whole, and I think it's one of the things that has contributed to the success of Creator Economy NYC, is that creators love just talking with other creators, especially if they're doing something in a different territory. You know, oh, you've grown on Instagram.
Brett Dashevsky:I've grown on YouTube. How have you grown on Instagram? Right? And they kinda wanna have those cross conversations, and and everyone's kind of sometimes in their own area, or they're scattered across the ecosystem.
Kaya Yurieff:I would add too that there's different types of creators. There's creators who identify more as entrepreneurs. There's creators who identify more as talent, where they don't want to be dealing with the back end, and they hire a team, and they really want to be the ones on camera and not dealing with payroll or taxes or any of that. And there's also different niches, as But Brett I also think it's quite a lonely career. Oftentimes, most creators are working alone or maybe with a manager.
Kaya Yurieff:So often creators are, like, wanting community and wanting to meet other creators because a lot of it is just about them, and they don't have a lot of spaces to gather. So many creators also blew up during the pandemic, so they were literally alone at home doing that. So I think there's different ways that creators identify. Some have also said they prefer creator over influencer or storyteller over creator. So I think there's different labels, but I'm hearing more and more creators be like, I'm actually just a new type of entrepreneur.
Brett Dashevsky:Now, I'll give you an example. Kaya, and maybe I'm speaking for you, but you might consider myself, you're a, you're a creator. And I would say, well, I I am maybe I am a creator, but I do consider myself more to be a founder. And that's actually how I operate, where I liked handling, like, brand partnerships and stuff and growing my business, and I actually don't mind kind of outsourcing some of the content creation that, the business is fueling, while still being a creator myself because you wanna have these brand led things. That's that's how it is now.
Brett Dashevsky:Right? You think about, god, have two terrible examples in my mind, maybe, but with, like, Elon. Right? He's bigger than Tesla. Alex Karp with Palantir, he's becoming bigger than Palantir.
Brett Dashevsky:But those are kind of that individual led brands, and that's what we're seeing within the creator economy. I mean, think of, like, MrBeast. Like, it's MrBeast is the brand. He is the brand, which then begs the question, where how do things live on beyond those individual creators? Which might be for another conversation, but just something to kind of think about, especially in
Mark Harrison:I the media find that very helpful, actually, to say to think of creators as being founders, because it's a reminder that if they want to do this professionally, actually they are starting a business. And then a whole load of things start to kick in, which they're not kind of of their time, they're actually historic, they're classic business growth things that have always existed. But ultimately, the big challenge I think I'm hearing you saying that they would all want to talk about when they're together well, two really. So one is scaling. Scale and reach, I guess, is always a topic of conversation.
Mark Harrison:And then the other is how you avoid churning out, how how you act your longevity Mhmm. How you keep doing this. Because there is quite a high level of churn, isn't there, in in this?
Kaya Yurieff:Yeah. I mean, burnout social media changes every five minutes what the trend is. Suddenly TikTok comes in and you're a long form YouTuber and you have to figure out short form video. Now podcasting is huge. Do you start a podcast?
Kaya Yurieff:Now AI is in the mix. What AI tools? I mean, you're constantly on this hamster wheel where, especially on YouTube and TikTok, you have to keep posting to stay on the algorithm to stay relevant, to stay top of mind for people. So I think that's why we're seeing I mean, even Brett, like, you're launching a software AI business. At some point, you don't wanna be creating content forever and ever.
Kaya Yurieff:And especially sometimes you age out, and sometimes you age up with your demographics. But I remember I was talking to a YouTuber, LaurDIY, and she was doing DIY content. And then she graduated college, and for a while she was still doing back to school content. And she was like, I'm not in school anymore. This is not really authentic.
Kaya Yurieff:So she's had to think about growing up with her audience and changing her content. So that's why you're seeing creators start businesses. Like, if you think about MrBeast, right, he's the biggest YouTuber, but he has a chocolate business, Feastables. He actually has a lot of real estate that he owns. He has, you know, he's raising funding, he's hiring.
Kaya Yurieff:He just hired a TikTok executive to run brand partnerships for him. So he's really building a huge business that is super diversified, and I think the future of his business is more Feastables than his YouTube, and now he has an Amazon Prime show. I mean, he has so many different things that he's done, and at some point, he's probably not going to be making YouTube videos. You wanna build something. I mean, if you think about Rihanna, like, she's not a billionaire because of her music, she's a billionaire because of Fenty Beauty.
Kaya Yurieff:Hailey Bieber also just sold her her beauty business. So I think creators see one, what's an exit? It's really hard to exit as a short form video creator. So how do you build a business that then you can step back
Mark Harrison:from? Okay.
Brett Dashevsky:The content is you're basically building your own distribution arm. You own the distribution.
Mark Harrison:But if, you know, in the next five years or so, we do see increasing blurring of the boundaries between the new media economy and the historic media economy. What I'm hearing from you is actually what's going to get sucked into what will become the new establishment are going to be a whole cohort of people who are far more comfortable with the business of media and the principles of media and how you attract audiences and grow audiences and so forth than was actually the case in the historic version of media. Do you see what I mean? I think actually we're going to find the workforces are much more dynamic in the whole world of media in the next sort of five years or so. But let's get into some of these segments if we could, because they are quite different and it'd be good to get your takes on some of them.
Mark Harrison:Let's begin with entertainment, which I guess one generally thinks of as being YouTube, but maybe shouldn't exclusively. So entertainment, I mean typically longer form content that is fulfilling all the functions of TV, where we have major personalities who are building their own studios, who are employing a number of people now. Now, this isn't brand new, is it? I remember actually meeting Blippi about six, seven years ago in Vegas, and Blippi, who is a guy who makes hugely successful, I think still pretty successful kids content on YouTube, and he'd moved to Vegas because it was a chance to literally build a physical studio at low cost in a kind of industrial unit because he was employing lots of people and making lots of content. So it's not new, but is it is it a growing thing, do you think, the YouTuber studio?
Kaya Yurieff:It's definitely growing, but I think most creators don't need it necessarily. So a lot of creators can just shoot from home. I think TikTok, again, lowered the barriers where Instagram was sort of this perfect filtered version of your life, where TikTok was like, you're filming something with your messy bedroom, people really like that authenticity. At the same time, so you're seeing different sides of the spectrum. You have the MrBeasts.
Kaya Yurieff:I was in LA last week, and I visited Dhar Mann Studios. Who's heard of Dhar Mann? Anyone in this room? Okay.
Mark Harrison:Suddenly Dhar Mann is everywhere.
Kaya Yurieff:He has 25,000,000 YouTube subscribers just on YouTube. He employs 200 people, a mix of contractors and full time. He has 125,000 square feet of production studio space in Burbank, like down the road from Warner Brothers. And I got a tour of this facility, and it's just incredible how they've created these different sets. And then he's also having creators come in, and then they can use some of the
Mark Harrison:So he's now a facility as well?
Kaya Yurieff:He is a facility. It's a small part of their business that could grow. Most of it is for his content. So you have creators like that who most people in this room have never heard of, who have these giant production facilities. Then you also have creators who are looking for space to shoot or just kind of there's all these amazing New York creators who do the man on the street interviews.
Kaya Yurieff:New York is their production facility. Right? So I don't think you need it, but I think we are starting to see more creators. And as the space gets more professionalized, you're starting to see that.
Mark Harrison:Is that your sense as well, Brett?
Brett Dashevsky:Yeah. Absolutely. Darman was my prime example. You think of Dude Perfect, how they have a facility now. Dude Perfect, they're like OG, YouTube.
Brett Dashevsky:I think that like anything in the business world, right, what what is the statistic? 99% of small businesses fail? It's like, I think with a creator, that similar thing applies, that you're not gonna see every creator kind of reach this, you know, outlier standpoint of being able to have a massive studio and and have great success. But the beauty of the creator economy is that creators can kind of be pretty lean operating teams and still connect very deeply with an audience and make a great living from that. And for many, maybe the goal is just a lifestyle business.
Brett Dashevsky:I love that I can have my own schedule and create content. But with that, some people kind of hit it off, and they're rivaling Warner Bros, and they're they're rivaling Netflix, because Dhar Mann is leaning into a lot of original content that is kind of, like, corny content, but, like, people eat that up, and and he has that distribution that he owns. He doesn't need to be on Netflix. He Why? He kinda has his own platform there.
Brett Dashevsky:But, you know, perhaps if a Netflix deal came, I'm sure it'd be like, right, still the creator
Kaya Yurieff:the call.
Brett Dashevsky:Right? For sure. The creators want to still kind of have that validation from from traditional media, where they're like, oh, hey, we're gonna put your show on ABC. It's like, okay. Despite in their kind of being the anti element of I'm an individual creator.
Brett Dashevsky:I have my own distribution. I don't need the gatekeepers of the traditional media world.
Mark Harrison:Kyle, yeah, what what do you what do you make of what Hollywood makes of this film? Yeah.
Kaya Yurieff:It's changed a lot. I think Hollywood used to kind of shrug off creators and think of them as d list. And now, I I just heard a story about this last month. I think there's been more than two dozen shows over the past year that have come from streamers that either are are about creators, produced with them. It's a mix of reality TV like Beast Games or Paul America, which follows Logan Paul and Jake Paul's family.
Kaya Yurieff:Peacock just released four shows, in May that were written and starring digitally native creators. So I think now Hollywood, I mean, post strikes, the rise of AI, it's a scary time in Hollywood right now. And they're seeing that, like, a lot of attention is going to creators. Deloitte had a recent study that fifty four percent of Gen Z identifies more with creators than traditional actors. That number, I think, is only going to grow.
Kaya Yurieff:I think creators feel a little bit more accessible to Gen Z than a Brad Pitt and traditional actors. So, yeah, I think Hollywood is starting to try to figure out how to work with creators more and more.
Brett Dashevsky:There was an interesting thing. By the way, raise your hand if you work in Hollywood here.
Mark Harrison:Probably not meant to. No.
Brett Dashevsky:Raise it with pride. Where the hell's going? On? So, the movie, maybe it was Sinners, just came out with Michael B. Jordan and Denzel Washington, I think.
Brett Dashevsky:Forgive me if I'm wrong here. And Denzel there was a rumor going around that Denzel said to Michael B. Jordan, you know, limit how much you're showing yourself on your social media leading up to the film, because, like, people are paying to come see you. Right? And I think the the arguments that were happening online, especially in the comments, which we we were able to analyze, is that basically, people were saying, This this kind of shows the difference in traditional, you know, older media versus younger media, where, no, Michael B.
Brett Dashevsky:Jordan should be showing his face and promoting and being visible every single day on people's feeds, so that, like, there's more awareness about the movie and that he's in it, as opposed to Denzel's take is like, I'm not gonna show myself the only because you're paying to come see me. You haven't seen me in a while, and now I'm on the big screen. So I think that there's just, like, a difference there, and I do think Hollywood is still kind of grappling, especially maybe some of the agencies where it's like, how much should you be revealing yourself on social, you know, to kind of gatekeep still a little bit of things, and what leads to promotion of of those films.
Mark Harrison:Yeah. Very interesting philosophical difference, isn't it, between gatekeeping and and being kind of open source Yep.
Brett Dashevsky:About what
Kaya Yurieff:you're I would add too, I think there's been some success stories, which has helped. Because we tried this ten years ago. Lilly Singh was put on net not on Netflix, on Late Night, and she had an NBC show. And putting a creator in kind of an old format, it just didn't work. Then I think Hollywood was like, oh, tried it.
Kaya Yurieff:It didn't work. There was a few examples of that. One example I'd point to, last year, Hulu released, a show called The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I don't know if anyone saw it. But I found out about it on TikTok because, basically it follows this group of Mormon moms who blew up during the pandemic.
Kaya Yurieff:They had this scandal, and this show's premiere beat out the Kardashians. And these are women that like had 300,000 followers on TikTok, but their story was so compelling, and they did such a good job of marketing it on TikTok that that drove people to Hulu. So I think you're seeing, like, okay. It doesn't actually have to be MrBeast. It can be so many different types of creators that can succeed in traditional formats and long
Mark Harrison:form. So could this start to become a a kind of quite quite common journey for content that even the established studios could want to seed an idea on social or on short form content and then see what happens with it? And then then if it's successful, then carry it to longer form on established platforms.
Kaya Yurieff:Definitely. I recently profiled this startup called Mad Realities, and they do TikTok for a short form series. And they are in talks right now with reality TV production companies to start these digital shows and test them out on social. And then basically, Mad Realities would own the IP and the rights to the social shows, and then the TV rights would go to the reality show, and then they could sort of Interesting. Prove out the concept before spending a lot of money and going to production.
Kaya Yurieff:So think I there's all these different interesting flavors of it happening
Mark Harrison:right Yeah.
Brett Dashevsky:Short form series, Quibi. Yeah. Know. Poor Quibi. But, nonetheless, well, Quibi was, I guess, ahead of its time and got hit with a lot of poor timing and poor leadership, but I think that ultimately, this element of teasing stuff online and getting response from it is a great way to understand whether or not to invest more dollars into it.
Brett Dashevsky:Yeah. And I would predict that maybe Netflix would lean into kind of some short form elements, which I think, like, it was experimenting with and whatnot. But, like, it's just not, like, native to the app and the brand that I think ultimately, like, relying honestly on putting stuff out on TikTok is a great kind of, like, low cost way for Netflix to ultimately be like, oh, people want more of this, like, mob show.
Mark Harrison:And and there's there's a new short form platform. Is it Real Shorts?
Kaya Yurieff:Real Shorts is one. Yeah. They do these kind of soap opera y, really dramatic. People really like it.
Mark Harrison:Yeah. Actually doing quite well. Yeah. Okay. So now, next.
Mark Harrison:Podcasts. Earlier on, gave a quote from Ted Sarandos about how Netflix conceived in my move into having podcasts, which seems kind of extraordinary. Is it a really big phenomenon? Should we be taking it seriously? Or is it just like one of those moments that's just blown up and will fade away again, the whole thing of the of the kind of video podcast or the video coverage of a podcast?
Kaya Yurieff:I think it's fair to say. I mean, this is a two decade old format. Right? Like, we it's in this kind of new renaissance, but I think, obviously, the twenty twenty four election was a huge turning point. President Trump used podcasts really effectively Yeah.
Kaya Yurieff:To reach people. So I think that gave it momentum. Think the rise of video. Same thing as creator economy. We're not really gonna be saying podcasts.
Kaya Yurieff:They're just shows. I think that's what Netflix sees is with the video element. It's the new talk show.
Mark Harrison:Every
Kaya Yurieff:celebrity is lining up to go on Alex Cooper's Call Her Daddy. It's not really a podcast anymore, it's a talk show. It's an old format that's just being reinvented, so I think it's here. I think also what's interesting about video is that unlocks lots more marketing budgets. So you might have a company that has a really small audio budget, and now suddenly it's video, and then they can use some of that other budget.
Kaya Yurieff:And then you have also new players coming to the space. So Spotify now is fighting with YouTube to to bring more video podcasts. So I think it's things are definitely gonna grow.
Mark Harrison:Mhmm. Mhmm. Do you agree with that?
Brett Dashevsky:I I absolutely agree. I mean, I think YouTube has done a really great job at dominating the video podcast space. I do. People, like, get all up in arms about the word video podcast. They're like, it's a it's just a podcast, whatever.
Brett Dashevsky:But I think that it's a good distinction, because people, when I say video podcast, what you think of is, yeah, like an interview, basically, that's being filmed, right? It's like sixty minutes or something of the sorts. And people really like, again, that individual element. I love, you know, how Alex Cooper interviews people. I love, you know, the grouping of comedians, right?
Brett Dashevsky:Jason Bateman or whatever that, you know, they're they're doing their Smartless podcast. And it's driving a lot to YouTube, because also people like to just mindly mindlessly listen to those things they're putting on the TV, and have a visual format. I I just I one, my my challenge is how Netflix, because they're so known for, like, original high quality content, what this might look like as they lean into this talk show y type format. Like, I don't think to go to YouTube has one mind share, in my opinion, in this space, where video podcasts, I'm gonna go to YouTube. Netflix, I'm gonna go for kind of, like, high quality content, and and it kinda is like that HBO conversation where it's like, should they just lean into the fact of what they're known for, like, or be the content everything app?
Brett Dashevsky:Right. But I think I see YouTube kind of being becoming the content everything app because they're kinda working from reverse, from user generated content to then more highly produced content, to maybe, like, I think YouTube just had an original thing with Michelle Care. Is that correct?
Kaya Yurieff:Correct.
Brett Dashevsky:Yeah. Didn't they do an original thing together?
Kaya Yurieff:Maybe.
Brett Dashevsky:I thought they did. I don't know. So But, I just kinda see YouTube kinda leaning in the reverse role, that I think will work better than Netflix kind of coming from its highly produced to then more like user generated stuff. And, obviously, it won't be like anyone can upload on Netflix. Well, I say that, but I think that it will be them kind of producing the shows.
Brett Dashevsky:But my last thing here is I I just feel like sometimes, like, they try to do splashy things. They get a big name, like, let's get, you know, Meghan Markle and Prince Harry to do a podcast, and those names, we'll sign a big deal with them, or the Obamas, and like, it just doesn't hit kind of what Spotify fell into. Right. As opposed to YouTube, what's so great about it is, like, it's these podcasts grow naturally. They start from, you know, a 100 views to a thousand to 50,000 to
Mark Harrison:It's an interesting point, because Netflix isn't really set up to kind of enable that in the same way.
Brett Dashevsky:Yeah. It's not like this, like, there's there's not there's a different feeling towards Netflix. It's it's this tech, high quality platform. YouTube to me feels like you dive in and you see, you know, oh, an emerging podcast, or a podcast you listen to on Spotify. Now you can, you know, watch it, and you see that, oh, these videos are only getting, like, you know, 5,000 views.
Brett Dashevsky:Like, you're still early to it. Share anything around it.
Kaya Yurieff:At the same time, though, I think so many pot like, if you look at like, you can recognize Call Her Daddy's set or Joe Rogan's set. Right? Like, they some of them have gotten so professionalized that I think it could work for Netflix. One thing that they've done is, there's this very popular podcast called Kill Tony, and it's a stand up. They're stand up comedians, and I think that Netflix has done really well with stand up specials.
Kaya Yurieff:So they did basically a a one time kind of show with KilTony, and they did it, you know, it's available on Netflix. I think they're gonna try to figure out what the best format is. They've also done deals with creators where their the creator's publishing on YouTube and Netflix the same day, so maybe that's something that, like Yeah. Alex Cooper now has a SiriusXM deal, but maybe a creator could who has a really professional set could do something
Brett Dashevsky:I like do see that standardization there. The All In podcast is going be Netflix's savior.
Mark Harrison:And then the next category, which podcast shades into, is news and sport. Those kind of live areas. In some ways, feels to me as if that's the most complicated area of all in terms of the relationship between established players and kind of emerging players. Is an important area, do you feel?
Brett Dashevsky:We had the honor of going to the White House last summer.
Kaya Yurieff:The first creator economy
Brett Dashevsky:First creator economy conference. Administration. But, yes. We'll see I don't know if it'll happen again this year. It was interesting that they had all these creators or some, you know, creators that were in the main room, then folks like Kaia were were invited.
Kaya Yurieff:They put me in the balcony, because you're press. Right.
Brett Dashevsky:But Kaia was playing the balcony with with press, and, like, here I was down on the Main Floor in, I'm you know like, hi, Brett. Exactly. And I'm like, okay, so the traditional media is being separated from the creators, but at the same time, I'm here, I have a newsletter, I'm gonna go write about all my experience and what was stated here, and I'm kind of reporting on it from my own angle, but creators are not necessarily being held to the same journalistic standards as actual reporters. And so that's kind of the contention that we're seeing right now in this space, is that, you know, the Trump administration opened opened up the press room, press briefings, to creators, but like, these creators are not credentialed journalists, and so there's there's no journalistic standards or, you know, that they're being upheld to when they're reporting on things, and that's kind of what we're leaning into. And and Biden even said, when we were in that room, like, you know, you are you are the new media, the new news.
Brett Dashevsky:People turn to you to hear about things, and it's like, yeah, but, like, I can say anything, and, like, people may eat it up, and not I'm not gonna get ridiculed for it because I'm not No, no, no, I'm not a journalist. I'm a creator. Whereas if you said something, mean, you could, like, lose your job. You would lose your whole career, would be kind of decimated for those things, because you are seen as a traditional reporter. All that being said, creators, and more, are are being turned to for news and for sports updates, and ESPN leaned into this for a little bit, where they did, like, a creator thing, where they have them kind of disperse clips and and report on things.
Brett Dashevsky:But it goes back to, like, everyone can have their own newscaster, everyone can have, you know, their own Neil Everett on on on ESPN versus watching ESPN.
Mark Harrison:So actually, you've got to that, Brad, because Steve had a question around this very thing of creators who present news or tend to cover more consequential topics. Do they need to be held responsible for information that they spread? And what guardrails should there be?
Brett Dashevsky:Should the platforms be held responsible, or should the creator be held responsible? That's the big question.
Kaya Yurieff:Yeah. I think it's hard. I mean, have a lot of opinions about this. I mean, I think we've also seen a lot of journalists who, from CNN or other outlets, leave and go independent. And they are trained and they I think they feel that responsibility, I think, like, most news, I don't know if anyone follows him, he was at CBS for a long time and he does a newsletter, and I think you can trust him because of his background, but there's so many creators who, by the way, how do you think they know what's going on in the news?
Kaya Yurieff:They're reading the traditional news. Yeah. So they still need that, but I think that there is a lot of concern, especially around really sensitive topics like Gaza and Israel, and even, like, if you remember, New York Times made a big mistake early on and that got spread. So even news outlets are grappling, right, with
Mark Harrison:Yeah.
Kaya Yurieff:Accuracy and and fact checking. I mean, I think now it seems like the platform mean, the platforms love to put the responsibility and onus on the users. So we've seen like Elon Musk's community notes, now that's on Meta. Meta rolled back fact checking after Trump was elected. So I I guess there is a level of, you know, on Twitter you go on and there's the context notes and people write, you know, this isn't true.
Kaya Yurieff:But it's hard. I mean, things on social can go really viral and take on a life of their own. So I think just as consumers, we have to be super discerning about what we're seeing. But, you know, increasingly, you're seeing headlines on Instagram. You're scrolling through and that's how you're getting your news.
Kaya Yurieff:And even the headlines don't tell the full nuance of the story. So I think it's a it's a scary time
Mark Harrison:for you.
Brett Dashevsky:Yeah. There's definitely a big rise in opinion news, where people will regurgitate from the traditional media and then lean into sharing their own take, which is what separates right? That's why people turn into certain newscasters
Mark Harrison:Yeah.
Brett Dashevsky:Right? Because they like their personality and their takes that they have, and so that's no different than now that ever there's a million of them, and you can choose the the one that you align with most or that validates your, you know, your viewpoint of the world.
Mark Harrison:Okay. So I'm gonna stop you there because we this this is we did a whole session on this thing in his own right. But I do wanna just ask you about influences, which I guess, of any category, feels like perhaps the most distinct and most definable, would you say? I mean, I think you said earlier on, Brett, that some people think of themselves as influencers as opposed to creators. And it is actually a slightly different category.
Mark Harrison:Is that fair?
Brett Dashevsky:It's like the never ending topic in this space. I would say yes, because like if I ask the audience, like when I say influencer, who do you think of? You might say like Kim Kardashian or something. If I say creator, who do you think of? You might say Hank Green or or or Bill Nye, maybe.
Brett Dashevsky:I'm just Okay. Using an What are the distinction between the two? One of them is ultimately maybe creating something, you know, via their knowledge or or curation tastes and whatnot, and then another is kind of basically influencing, you know, via their their their lifestyle and what they're putting out, but they're not necessarily creating any anything new. I still struggle with kind of the distinction, but I think, like, anyone can maybe be a creator, but not everyone can influence to an extent. So I'd I'd be curious of your distinction.
Brett Dashevsky:Someone had a good, like, circle chart to define this. But I will say, the the nomenclature is important, because creators, if you're referring to them as influencers creators, there's a different way that they see themselves, and also your strategy might evolve depending upon how you use that term.
Kaya Yurieff:I think influencer also became a dirty word, so then creators, like, just sounds nicer. Right? So I think of influencers more as someone who can, like, really drive people to take an action, whether that's to buy something, to take a course, to do something, and I think we we sort of think about them as more commercialized.
Mark Harrison:I was gonna say, they kind of marketers really?
Kaya Yurieff:Fashion, beauty, like creators who can really or influencers who can really be like, okay. You wanna know my outfit? Here are all the links. They do a lot of affiliate marketing. That's kind of what I think about.
Mark Harrison:Do do you think established media organizations have really worked out how to work with influencers? Yeah.
Brett Dashevsky:Well, some. Is anyone from Are
Kaya Yurieff:we talking about brands or news outlets?
Mark Harrison:No. I'm talking about, like, established studios and and media. Anyone here from Paramount?
Brett Dashevsky:Well, okay. So anyway, so Paramount, Mobland, right? Yeah. It's on Paramount. They like, their TikTok's doing really well.
Brett Dashevsky:Yeah. So whoever's on their TikTok is doing a great job with Clippage and figuring that out, which is a huge thing. But also, I I don't know. I've been seeing a lot of UGC content. I don't know if they're necessarily behind it, but, like, it's it's quite interesting if you get some creators to talk about the show, or someone was doing impressions of the cast, and it was, like, blowing up, and it's like, that's, like, an interesting way to, you know, put influencer marketing behind TV show and media, as opposed to just purely a physical product.
Brett Dashevsky:So I don't know if any of the studios are leaning heavily into that, but, like, it certainly should be part of their part of their strategy.
Kaya Yurieff:I think more brands also, and executives are thinking more like creators, so
Mark Harrison:Right.
Kaya Yurieff:Duolingo, I think, is the most prominent example. Right? Like, everyone's nodding their head. Like, they have made Duo their influencer. They've built a whole, like, really creative, interesting social media account where, like, they are the creator.
Kaya Yurieff:I think they do some creator partnerships, but really, they are a very creator first brand. Last week, I interviewed Snapchat CEO Evan Spiegel, he, this year, made a public Snapchat account. He's posting on LinkedIn. He's been really private. He doesn't do a lot of interviews.
Kaya Yurieff:And this year he said his New Year's resolution is to sort of get out there a little bit more. Same thing. I was scrolling Instagram reels last night and I'm looking at him like Gavin Newsom is like on, you know, speaking to me and vlogging basically about the ICE raids in LA. So even politicians are thinking like, okay, I need to reach people where they are and in the formats they like. So of course he's still doing press conferences and interviews and going TV, but he's also on his Instagram speaking directly to followers about what's going on from his perspective.
Kaya Yurieff:So everyone, I think, needs to think a bit more like a creator, whether you're a brand or an individual or an executive, and you're starting to see people lean in.
Brett Dashevsky:We need more David Zaslov TikToks. That's what I wanna say.
Mark Harrison:There are people here who I'm sure could make that happen. Now I'm aware of time running, and I was actually getting quite a few questions in, so forgive me if I'm not getting to your question, because I I do have to ask you both about about whether you feel there's kind of limits to growth in this space. There's so much kind of hype at the moment around the creator economy. Are we just going to see growth upon growth upon growth?
Kaya Yurieff:I mean, I think the reality is there's a shelf life for creators. So there's gonna be the MrBeast and the Logan Pauls, but even PewDiePie, like, was the biggest YouTuber. You don't hear about him. Like, he has, like, a substack that he writes with his wife now. I'm sure he has like, if he invested his money properly, he's good.
Kaya Yurieff:Like, he's fine. But he's totally out of the conversation and out of the zeitgeist. So I wouldn't be surprised if we say that about MrBeast and Fibers. Right? Mhmm.
Kaya Yurieff:Like, I think he's built such a big business that he'll continue in various ways. But for the average creator, I think it's really hard. And we haven't really talked about the economic environment we're in, but there's a lot of uncertainty and brands hate uncertainty. So we've seen marketing budgets get impacted by that, brands hold off on doing deals with creators. So it is a scary time, but at the same time, think influencer marketing is a little bit of a safer bet for brands right now and less expensive than other types of marketing, so it might not have as big of an impact.
Kaya Yurieff:And same thing, I mean, maybe Meta pulls back on the Instagram Reels bonuses. Right? Or I think the the economic shifts impact creators as well, but it's a scary place to be. I mean, creators have to adapt constantly. Their content style, suddenly they fall out of the algorithm, their views, you know, are down 50% in a month and they have no idea why.
Kaya Yurieff:Right? Like, ultimately, they're building these businesses on platforms they don't control, so I think that's the limit is you really have to think and put on that entrepreneur.
Mark Harrison:Right. So the question actually that Rowan asked about actually is it false for creators to think that they control their distribution because actually they don't?
Kaya Yurieff:They don't unless they have a newsletter or a course or they build some sort of other business and mailing list where they actually have direct contact with their
Mark Harrison:audience. Yeah. Yeah. Because the change in the model for revenue generation could completely destroy the
Kaya Yurieff:mean, changed creators actually make a lot of money on Facebook, the blue app, but Facebook changed how it pays. And now suddenly creators are like, oh, well, this paycheck I was getting every month looks very different than it did. And same thing. I mean, YouTube YouTube can fluctuate as well.
Mark Harrison:So, you know, there are these numbers that got banded around a few years ago after Goldman Sachs came up with a number. They said that this sector was worth $250,000,000,000 in '23. It would double by '27. Is that even meaningful to talk about? Are you trying to put a number on it?
Mark Harrison:I want
Kaya Yurieff:a US census on creators. Like, why can't you put on your tax return that you're a creator? I mean, I think it's exciting to see a Goldman Sachs come in and try to size the market, because there's no reliable stat focus. Influencer marketing firms and other companies like Linktree have put out stats. Like, we don't even know how many creators there are.
Kaya Yurieff:Like, we don't know the basics about this industry. And I think what makes it hard to measure is even within influencer marketing, more and more brands are putting paid spending to boost those posts. So how do you even measure what's influencer marketing, what's coming to the social media It doesn't really matter. Because I think creators are just permeating into every aspect. I mean, even Gavin Newsom is a creator now.
Kaya Yurieff:So everything is creator, so how do you measure that? But I do think people still underestimate the size of these businesses, the influence of these creators. So I think it's important to try to size the market, but it's hard. I mean, I think they did that based on kind of brand partnerships and the big platforms, but it's I mean, kudos to them for trying because I think that's great that at least we have some stats out there.
Brett Dashevsky:I would think, one, it's great that Goldman Sachs came in a couple years ago and made that price because of that valuation, because it adds legitimacy to the fact that this thing exists, and it is an economy, and there's a number associated with it. And that's necessary, especially as one big thing that I tout with Creator Economy when I see and the goal of what we're building is like, creators need to be recognized as small businesses. They need to be seen as small businesses. If they want to grow and not fall into this trap of needing to quit, or just not making any more money, they need to have a business mindset. Because again, like, if 99% of small businesses fail, they are not immune to that.
Brett Dashevsky:And, the smartest creators who are gonna do well are gonna diversify their revenue through affiliate brand partnership, maybe platform revenue, or they're also gonna lean into owning their audience, you know, via a newsletter or other course type thing. And so that is something that's really important. So there are limits to growth, but if you are a savvy business person, savvy entrepreneur, or you bring on a proper operator or co founder
Mark Harrison:Mhmm.
Brett Dashevsky:You know, you can grow in really great ways. And so that's why I consider myself more of a founder and entrepreneur, because I'm thinking beyond purely just creator creator and content. I want to actually build a great business. And kind of how Steve Jobs always talked about, create great products, he knew that he also needed to create a great business. I think creators should be thinking very similarly about that, that in order to create great content and fuel your creativity, you need to have a great business associated with it.
Brett Dashevsky:You can't be a starving artist for too long, you're gonna go back to your nine to five. And so I think it's wonderful that Goldman Sachs put that number on there. I think that the when we were at the White House, the big thing was talking about how can creators get access to I
Kaya Yurieff:didn't said that number.
Brett Dashevsky:Like Yeah.
Kaya Yurieff:It has a lot of weight, I think, when, like, a Goldman Sachs review
Brett Dashevsky:Right. Is because it's the only number that's out there. But it like, they're milking it, and it's great, and it is the only way that there's gonna be infrastructure provided in this place for this new era of online entrepreneurs. And I'm not just talking about people launching Shopify stores, but people who are making money primarily through content creation and knowledge sharing. And it's a whole new era.
Brett Dashevsky:It is the modern career, and, you know, I'm stoked to be building in it and supporting the ecosystem around it, in which many of you operate in, and, you know, are gonna feel pressure to basically lean into. I I don't think this is a Web three moment. This is like you're seeing a genuine shift within media, and the need for creators and and being where they are and where meeting audiences where they are.
Mark Harrison:Well, we must stop there because of the time, but one of the things I've already taken from this conversation actually is that when we think about the creator economy, don't just get hung up on the creator part.
Kaya Yurieff:Although they're very important.
Mark Harrison:They are But like the remember that even for them, actually the economy part is really at the heart of whether they're going to make it, but also the kind of influence they're going to have. Thank you both very much. I really enjoyed that. Bye everyone, Brett. Thank you.
